***UPDATE***- Ok, so the discussion for this thread has been phenomenal, with many, many great names being tossed around. I think what will happen is that whenever conversation dies down, we'll take all the names (hopefully, like one commenter suggested, we get 32 guys) and match 2 of them up, bracket style, and see who moves on.
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So, looking around at the other superb SBN baseball blogs, I see that a number of teams are keeping up with their various minor league players. Whether it be polling to see which player has shown the most promise, or Baseball Prospectus-like rankings, everyone is interested in looking to the future.
We here at TCB are also interested in our future. Hell, with this team it's not so much interest as it often is worry. Bill James said we have the least amount of young talent of any team in MLB. So what should we do in the meantime?? I say we look to the past/present, and try to determine just who is the greatest exemplar of what it means to be a Houston Astro. These young up and comers need something to look up to, am I right??
Working Definition of Astro-iest: Not just who is the best player, but who embodies what it means to play baseball in Houston, Texas for the Astros (whatever you think that means). Did the player grow up in Texas and go on to success with the hometown team? Maybe he's from somewhere else, but became a fan favorite. Baggage or none, All-Star or not, who is the Astro-iest?
Here's what I'm thinking- I have a list of 22 current and former Astros (and a certain stadium) that we came up with. After everyone has said their piece, we'll decide who the final16 will be, and do a good old fashioned tournament to decide who is the most Astro-iest. So, if everyone could leave a comment or two, telling us who you think should make up the final 16 or which 6 should be knocked out, it would make this process all the more enjoyable. In other words: let's get some discussion going- did we miss someone? Any suggestions to improve this endeavor? Let us know.
Without further adieu, here are the people/thing that make up our list...
The Astrodome
Milo Hamilton
Jeff Bagwell
Craig Biggio
Lance Berkman
Larry Dierker
Jimmy Wynn
Nolan Ryan
Shane Reynolds
Mike Scott
Jose Cruz
JoseLima
Brad Ausmus
Roy Oswalt
Roger Clemens
Alan Ashby
Billy Doran
Joe Niekro
Roy Oswalt
Mike Hampton
Ken Caminiti
Billy Wagner
Reader Submitted Choices:
Dickie Thon
J.R. Richard
Jim Bouton
Jim DeShaies
1 recs | 63 comments
Biggio hands down is the Best Houston Astro ever. He not only played his heart out every game but started at multiple postions and never once said “I play second base only”. You also have to look at what he has done for the community (Sunshine Kids) he is what I would say is the best representation of what an Astro should be.
wadero - November 20, 2008
Well, I think we would need some definition of what "Astro-ness" is.
Growing up in the 1990s, I watched the Astros possess fantastic talent year after year, only to break down and fail in the playoffs. I’d say that whoever embodies that fact the best is the “Astro-iest.”
So, with that in mind, I think Mike Hampton is the guy who best personifies the Astros. He was a small pitcher whom no one (save the Astros, of course) thought would succeed. But he was awesome while in Houston. Since then, he just hasn’t been able to catch a break (well, except for when he made it to the World Series with the Mets). He blew up in Colorado and keeps getting injured. He’s a guy who had so much promise, but he just didn’t get lucky enough to have a fantastic career.
I’d also like to mention Dickie Thon. There’s no one better that I can think of who embodies that spirit. Incredible talent sidelined by fate.
Only_A_Lad - November 20, 2008
done, i hope
Evan Hochschild - November 20, 2008
and
thank you for going with hampton off the bat….our hope was that everyone would think beyond bagwell and biggio (although they are the biggest names).
Evan Hochschild - November 20, 2008
It's definitely legitimate to think of Bagwell and Biggio
they were synonymous with Houston baseball for over a decade. But both of them are going to the hall of fame. That demonstrates a level of personal success that just doesn’t seem analogous to a franchise that has yet to win a world series. When the Astros do that, then maybe we can say that guys like Bagwell, Biggio, Ryan, or even Oswalt, Berkman, and Wagner personify the Astros. Until then, however, (and this is not to belittle the accomplishments of Guys like Hampton and Thon) I’d say that only those whose career have something of a tragic element to them really embody the Astros. And it has to be tragedy caused purely by fate, not personal choices. That’s why I didn’t really consider Ken Caminiti – his career was sidelined because of his own tragic decisions.
Only_A_Lad - November 20, 2008
interesting point
with Cammy. He’s a controversial guy- on one hand he was by all accounts a great guy, just full of demons…
Clemens too. I included him on my list because he was the face of the 04 and 05 teams, and probably the greatest pitcher of our generation (roids or not)…I’ll be interested to see how everyone feels about these two…
Evan Hochschild - November 20, 2008
I think even more than Mike Hampton, J.R. Richard embodies the promise/tragedy element.
He holds the club record for most strikeouts in a season, but his career was cut short by a stroke in 1980.
I’m too young to have first-hand memory of him, but my dad definitely remembers. He’s got a fascinating story…after his career finished, he got involved in some bad business deals and got seriously cleaned out. As in, he was homeless for a while.
AstroAndy - November 20, 2008
Good one.
Wow, that’s really sad.
Only_A_Lad - November 20, 2008
I would vote for Biggio at the top.
I agree with wadero’s reference to the Sunshine Kids. In addition, Biggio excelled in both the Dome and MMP eras and, by most accounts, had a great influence on the team culture.
However, we shouldn’t forget that the 60’s and 70’s was a completely different era for the Astros, characterized by perhaps the best collection of amateur talent in baseball but the a consistent failure to reach the playoffs. That probably wasn’t the players’ fault as much as the front office’s failure, since the top management seemed to misuse or discard the great talent signed by the teams’ scouts.
continue
So, for that reason, I would put Jimmy Wynn and Larry Dierker at the top of this list. Both of these guys were very, very good players, but enormously underrated by national baseball media and fans. Both players never got to the playoff land (even though Dierker did, later as an Astros manager), but it wasn’t a reflection on their talent. That seems like the profile of those early Astros’ teams. And both Wynn and Dierker continue to be identified with the Astros.
clack - November 20, 2008
I second Dierker.
AstroAndy - November 20, 2008
my ballot (16 who make the cut)
Mike Hampton
Roy Oswalt
Joe Niekro
Alan Ashby
Brad Ausmus
Shane Reynolds
Nolan Ryan
Jimmy Wynn
Larry Dierker
Lance Berkman
Craig Biggio
Jeff Bagwell
The Astrodome
Billy Wagner
Mike Scott
Roger Clemens
Evan Hochschild - November 20, 2008
I'd nix Nolan
As awesome as Nolan Ryan is, I feel like his personal allegiances run stronger to the ballclub in Arlington.
AstroAndy - November 20, 2008
Where's J.R.?
I’d nix Lima for J.R. Richards. I don’t think journeyman Lima embodies the almost loyal to a fault – see Ausmus, Brad – character of the Astros over the last tweny years.
aarcraft - November 20, 2008
he's on there
at the bottom. you probably just looked at the list right before i added him.
Evan Hochschild - November 20, 2008
Ahh, there he is.
good call.
aarcraft - November 20, 2008
My 16
(no particular order) Bags, Biggio, Dierker, Richards, Wynn, Cruz, Cammi, Ausmus, Scott, Neikro, Ashby, Oswalt, Berkman, Thon, Ryan, Hampton.
Thoughts on exclusions. Clemens is not an Astro – hes a Red Sox, Yankee, Blue Jay and hired gun. Astrodome and Hamilton -too many good players. Billy Wagner – love him, but he will be remembered as a Met. Jose Lima – journeyman. Reynolds and Doran – I had to pick 16.
aarcraft - November 20, 2008
thank you sir
for completing your ballot
Evan Hochschild - November 20, 2008
Jose Lima, I think,
is the exact opposite of what it is to be an Astro. I liked watching the guy (when he was good), but his brief stint as an awesome pitcher was almost entirely luck. He wasn’t a talented player who got unlucky, he was a mediocre player who got spectacularly lucky for two seasons.
Only_A_Lad - November 20, 2008
casa ole!
ole! fresh today…anyone, anyone?
Evan Hochschild - November 20, 2008
If anyone can find a copy of that commercial on the internet, I’d be eternally grateful.
AstroAndy - November 20, 2008
I tried for a solid hour last week
No dice.
Stephen Higdon - November 20, 2008
same here
just tried for like 20 min
Evan Hochschild - November 20, 2008
I'll add Jim Bouton's name....
Look, the Astros have had their share of screwball (no, not the pitch) pitchers, from Kerfeld to Mike Marshall. (This is complicated…Marshall actually did throw a screwball.) But Bouton was funny and irreverent and wrote one of the greatest baseball books of all time, “Ball Four.” I suspect that most everyone who frequents this board has read it (but if you haven’t, get it.) I suppose some might disqualify Bouton because his great years were with the Yankees. But he wrote the book while he was journeyman knuckleballer with the Astros.
What other team can boast two pitchers (Dierker and Bouton) who wrote two of the funniest baseball books around? Interestingly, Dierker and Bouton were on the same pitching staff.
clack - November 20, 2008
Deshaies
I’d love to see Deshaies on the list. Quality Astro and great color commentator. If I had to watch anyone else broadcast our games, I think I’d puke.
JEH629 - November 20, 2008
golly
how did we leave of JD??? If nothing else, he makes Astros games extremely entertaining…he’s one of the few ex players turned color commentators that makes intelligent comments. he goes against the grain, and for that he will be on the list.
Evan Hochschild - November 20, 2008
He’s the epitome of what it means to be “Astro-iest”
JEH629 - November 20, 2008
I'll go for a top 10
1) Bagwell – promising, HOF career gets cut short, leaving in legacy somewhat in question.
2) Biggio – one of the two who I think of when I think: Astros.
3) JR Richard – for all the reasons mentioned above.
4) Ken Caminiti – sure his own demons are to fault, but as I kid I admired his hard nose approach to the game and also associated it with how the Astros played — getting the most they could out of themselves.
5) Roy Oswalt
6) Billy Doran – If Craig Biggio is a guy I think of as embodying what it means to be an Astro, then the man who taught him how to play his position deserves a nod.
7) Deshaies – mainly for his off the field contribution.
8) Berkman – Plays the game the right way.
9) Jimmy Wynn
10) Brad Ausmus – Intelligence and reverence for the game. Plus, what sums up Astros baseball more than offensive ineptitude.
Honorable Mention:
Tony Eusebio – dude had a ridiculous streak.
Stephen Higdon - November 20, 2008
my vote
I think you’ve got most of the Astroiest on that list, especially w/ the names tossed in from the comments
My only opinion is that you remove Roger Clemens. Not because of his recent turmoil or anything – he just never felt like an Astro to me. Maybe I just had too many baseball cards of him in a Red Sox uniform, but he’s an AL East baseball player. He sure as hell won’t go into the HOF w/ our star on his cap, if he gets in at all. I know what he did for us, but that doesn’t make him Astro-y. I know he’s from Texas and all that, but he won’t be remembered as an Astro.
Also, I just want to second Eusebio for honorable mention. For some reason, when I was scrolling through some of my favorite Astros in my head, Tony came up. But, like DQ, I’m not sure he’d make the top 10 cut.
Trei Brundrett - November 20, 2008
true
he seemed like a hired hand….he was open to go anywhere for the right price…
Evan Hochschild - November 20, 2008
not hired hand
more like a mercenary
Evan Hochschild - November 20, 2008
I'm glad I'm not the only one
With a strange affinity for the man.
Stephen Higdon - November 20, 2008
My top 16, with explanations for the top 11:
1. & 2. Biggio and Bagwell – these are the guys who lead the team when I was a kid and loved the game, who stuck with the team through thick and thin, even when I didn’t (I became a disillusioned teenager after the 1994 strike), and who were still there as "elder statesmen" when I found my way back to the game in college.
3. & 4. Gene Elston and Milo Hamilton – between these two guys, they’ve been the "voice" of the Houston Astros since before they were Astros. Elston from the inaugural season of the Colt .45’s through 1986, and Milo from 1987 to the present (although he only does home games these days). I know a lot of people don’t like Milo’s style, but I’ve gotta admit, his voice is strongly linked to the ‘Stros for me…I may not always know what just happened on-field or what the score is, but I do know that I’m listening to an Astros game.
5. , 6., & 7. Larry Dierker, Phil Garner, and Jose Cruz – First they played, then they managed/coached. One day, maybe Ausmus or Biggio will join this list. I will always remember my first game at the Dome, asking my dad why they were booing their own team, and him explaining to me that they were saying Cruuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuz.
8. & 9. Jim Deshaies and Bill Brown – J.D. and Brownie are one of the best duos in baseball broadcasting today. And Deshaies held the team record for most wins by an rookie pitcher until Roy O broke it ’01.
10. & 11. Roy Oswalt and Lance Berkman – these guys were new faces to me when I returned to the fold in the early 2000’s. Believe it or not, I actually remember initially disliking Berkman, thinking "How could this guy even think about filling Bagwell’s shoes". But they managed to give me my first World Series where I watched every minute of every game. And regardless of what happens from here on out, Roy O will always be an Astros legend simply for the whole tractor business.
Rounding out my top 16: J. R. Richard, Mike Scott, Jimmy Wynn, Alan Ashby, and The Astrodome
AstroAndy - November 20, 2008
PS
This is a great thread!
AstroAndy - November 20, 2008
nice job AstroAndy
we’re getting some awesome responses, which makes the thread great. if nothing else, its interesting to see why people like certain players/people in the organization.
Evan Hochschild - November 20, 2008
may i insert
asst. trainer, Rex Jones. His handlebar mustache is truly supreme.
Evan Hochschild - November 20, 2008
What about
the “Killer B’s” tag as a whole?
jonthefon - November 20, 2008
does derek bell
count as a b? sean berry?
Evan Hochschild - November 20, 2008
Biggio, Bags, Bell, and Berry were the Killer B’s, and Brad was the wanna-be. I still have the poster.
JEH629 - November 20, 2008
Some Sentimental Picks
Tim Bogar – Greatest shortstop in the history of Ken Griffey, Jr. Baseball and recent minor league manager of the year
Richard Hidalgo – “Doggy” and “Who let the Dogs out?”
Eric Anthony
Mike Magnante
Randy Knorr – Always thought of the soup brand when they showed him in the bullpen.
James Mooooooooooouton
Kevin Bass
Brian L. Hunter
and I don’t think you can have an “Astro-iest” list that includes the Astrodome if you don’t put Drayton and Tal Smith on the list, as well.
JEH629 - November 20, 2008
You could probably end up making a 32 person bracket.
JEH629 - November 20, 2008
at this point
we’re getting so many good responses from people, we may have to hand out honorable mentions, in addition to the Sweet-16
Evan Hochschild - November 20, 2008
Kevin Bass...
Good call.
Stephen Higdon - November 20, 2008
Tim Bogar
was badass in KGJ Baseball, but I’d take Bret Saberhagen in RBI Baseball anyday. Once you knew how to pitch with him, he was unhittable.
jonthefon - November 20, 2008
Definitely had Doggy and Bass...
… on my All Sentimental team. Casey Candaele and Bill Spiers, too.
Austin Astroholic - November 20, 2008
Billy Spiers was definitely one of my favorites. Nice work.
JEH629 - November 21, 2008
Luis Gonzales, anyone?
Steve Finely to a lesser extent?
Evan Hochschild - November 20, 2008
Considered 'em both.
Then I went and looked at their stats. Gonzales was up and down as an Astro, and while I loved Finley, he was only here 4 seasons.
Austin Astroholic - November 20, 2008
The Short-Lived Astro All Star Team
A list of players who had early careers in Houston, or were drafted by us, but ended up making a name for themselves on other teams. Can anyone help me fill in the blanks?
SP – Curt Schilling
SP – Johan Santana
C-
1B
2B – Joe Morgan
3B – Phil Nevin
SS -
OF – Kenny Lofton
OF – Bobby Abreu
OF -
JEH629 - November 20, 2008
Add ons for the Short-Lived Astro All Star Team
OF Carlos Beltran
SP RandyJohnson
AstroAndy - November 20, 2008
I was thinking more along the lines of drafted but never really played for us, instead of rented players. But if we can’t fill the slots, I’m sure we’d have to go to the Beltrans of the baseball universe.
JEH629 - November 20, 2008
ah, gotcha
I will have to think a bit harder now
AstroAndy - November 20, 2008
yes a new list of 32
i think we should add a lot of ppl. to the list and ake out a few so i think we should have a 32 person bracket…Guys like Clemens should notbe on since he was barely a stro…ryan is a ?
also maybe randy johnson can be on this list (unless he wasnt here long enough)…
btw about eusabio – I LOVED HIM! and bogar, berry, and bell good times (nice killer b group there too!)
gettinziggywithit - November 20, 2008
ok ok
im starting to agree with clemens being out….
Evan Hochschild - November 20, 2008
I like the idea of the bracket
We’ll make it happen.
Stephen Higdon - November 20, 2008
Now I might not answer the question just the way you ask it...
… as a recent vice presidential candidate might say.
Here’s my list. At least two names on here no one else has mentioned, I don’t think. These are sentimental picks.
Bagwell
Biggio (those two in that order, the rest are random)
Mike Scott
Nolan Ryan
Jose Cruz
Ken Caminiti
Bill Doran
Larry Dierker
Brad Ausmus
Alan Ashby
Roy Oswalt
Billy Wagner
Cesar Cedeno
J.R. Richard
Darryl Kile
Lance Berkman (and here I was struggling to think of the 16th!)
Austin Astroholic - November 20, 2008
Bold Choices
Stephen Higdon - November 20, 2008
when i think astros
i think Scott Elarton! i’ll vote for Biggio though as the astro-iest.
Aron - November 21, 2008
elarton
i think he may still be kicking around in the minors somewhere….off the top of my head, he was either with kansas city or cleveland in the not too distant past
Evan Hochschild - November 21, 2008
Charlie Kerfeld
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xC2y3RmQUdw
Only_A_Lad - November 21, 2008
This led me...
… on a 25 minute digression of watching Astros crap on YouTube.
Austin Astroholic - November 21, 2008
To wit:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uqXcn3WNEVs
Austin Astroholic - November 21, 2008
We are truly indebted to your diligence and persistence
A Rec for you.
Stephen Higdon - November 21, 2008
Doug Rader
Caradoc - November 22, 2008
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